Revelation and the Dead Sea Scrolls
An interview with Dre Binley
This conversation examines the significance of the Dead Sea Scrolls, their role in affirming the reliability of Scripture, and their connection to biblical theology. Anthony Delgado explains how the Scrolls demonstrate the care of scribes in preserving the biblical text, countering claims that the Bible is like a “telephone game.” The discussion then shifts to the Book of Enoch, clarifying that while it is not Scripture, it influenced Second Temple thought and appears to underlie New Testament passages such as Jude 6. Delgado highlights parallels between Enoch and Revelation, noting shared apocalyptic imagery, depictions of the unseen realm, and scenes of judgment that help contextualize John’s vision. Revelation presents a cosmic conflict in which loyalty to God or to contrary spirits determines one's destiny, with angels playing an active role in God’s governance. Ultimately, the dialogue frames this material not just as academic, but as fuel for worship, reminding listeners that God’s authority is supreme and that Scripture invites us into an awe-filled participation in his redemptive plan.
Dre Binley: Anthony, tell us first of all about these paintings behind you, because if not, I’m just going to be wondering about them the whole time and not listening to our conversation. You have two very different paintings behind you. I would say they’re different styles. One is a clown, and the other looks like some people, though I can’t quite see it.
Anthony Delgado: These are two of my favorite paintings. The clown is actually a new addition to my wall. My grandmother loved to paint clowns, and there’s a funny story behind that one. My mom was actually a professional clown when I was little, so even though they say half the population is afraid of clowns, I’m not. The first time I was interviewed with that painting in the background was on a channel called Ring Them Bells with Jason Bosto. Before we even started, he asked me about it, and when he left that part in the video, his tens of thousands of followers started emailing me to take the clown down. So I actually wrote an article called “A Biblical Symbology of Clowns” on my website to show people that clowns have an important place in society.
The other painting was done by my second daughter, Annise. She’s a great artist, as are all my kids. I’m more of a musician than an artist, but they’re talented. That painting is of me and her when we lived in a bus conversion while I was in seminary. You can even make out the carpet on the ceiling in the picture.
Dre Binley: Oh, cool.
Anthony Delgado: So those are two of my favorite paintings.
Dre Binley: Nice. Well, now that I know you guys are good clowns and not the bad kind.
Anthony Delgado: Good clowns only.
Dre Binley: I don’t think I’m afraid of clowns, so I think we’re good. Okay, so Anthony, tell us a little about yourself. You mentioned that you’re a bi-vocational pastor. Tell us more.
Anthony Delgado: I’m a bi-vocational pastor at Palmdale Church in Southern California, and I’ve been there for a little over ten years. Before that I was a youth pastor and worship pastor for many years, as well as a church planter. My wife and I entered ministry a little later than most. I was a college dropout who preferred working over education, but when I was about 26 I went back to school. At first I just wanted a degree, so I enrolled in an online program at Sterling College in Kansas, one of the few accredited online degrees available at the time. This was around 2006 or 2007.
I earned a bachelor’s in Christian Reason, which focused heavily on the church fathers, high Christology, and Trinitarian studies. At the time I was serving as a youth pastor, and I didn’t want to stop studying, so I began an M.Div. I tried a traditional on-campus seminary, but living an hour and a half away made it impractical with ministry responsibilities. I eventually graduated from Knox Theological Seminary through their online program.
A few years later we felt called to church planting, which led us to where we are now. My wife is highly involved in ministry as well, and both of us are teachers. I’m bi-vocational, so I’ve taught media art, music, and now special education.
Dre Binley: Is that in a public school?
Anthony Delgado: Yes, I’ve always taught in public schools. I led a media arts program at Littlerock High School for two and a half years, taught music for a year, and now teach special education.
Dre Binley: Do any of your students go to your church?
Anthony Delgado: Not anymore. At times I’ve had some, but Littlerock is in another town, and most of the kids in our church are homeschooled. We homeschooled our own kids as well.
Dre Binley: Cool. How many kids do you have?
Anthony Delgado: We have three. My oldest just got married last Friday, which was exciting. They’re moving into their first place this week. My second daughter is the one in the painting—she’s 17 and starting her senior year of high school. My son is 15, starting his sophomore year, and he wants to graduate a year early.
Dre Binley: Nice, all older kids.
Anthony Delgado: Yes.
Dre Binley: Nice. That’s cool. And what denomination is Palmdale Church? Or is it non-denominational?
Anthony Delgado: That’s the question. I hesitate to answer because I’m somewhat anti-non-denominational. That’s the world I grew up in, but I’ve learned the value of a denomination. We’re Southern Baptist, but we’re probably the worst Southern Baptists you’ve ever met. Officially, we affirm the doctrine of the Southern Baptist Convention, but we don’t hold to the traditions. We follow more of a high church model—sacramental, liturgical, and speaking of the sacraments much like the early Reformers, Calvin and Luther. When fellow Southern Baptist pastors visit us, they often say, “This is not at all what we’re doing,” because we have thoughtful prayer, extended Scripture reading, and a different rhythm. But I think that’s a good thing, because it starts meaningful conversations.
Dre Binley: Cool. Love it. We both recently went to see the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit in Southern California out by Malibu. That’s how I found you—after I went, I looked online to see how others felt about the exhibit. When I read your blog, I realized they were swapping out parts of the exhibit every three months. You had seen seven or eight different fragments.
Anthony Delgado: No way, I didn’t know that. I would have gone again.
Dre Binley: Yeah, I should have gone twice. It’s a little far, but I also thought they would have more fragments. The way they describe it online, I expected to see a significant percentage of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Instead, I only saw seven. I don’t even know how many total fragments there are, since they’re still discovering more. But seeing those seven was really cool.
Anthony Delgado: I think there were eight when I went.
Dre Binley: Nice. And of course they also had about 200 other ancient items that were fascinating. It was really exciting. So, for the listeners, what are the Dead Sea Scrolls, and why was it important for you to see them?
Anthony Delgado: The Dead Sea Scrolls are remarkable. We tend to take our English Bibles for granted, assuming they’re the same Scriptures that have simply been translated into Latin, French, German, and English for 2,000 years. That’s true in some ways, but not in others. For example, when the King James Bible was produced in the 1600s, the Old Testament texts they used were from the medieval period, not from the ancient world.
So in modern times, when skepticism about religion rises, people argue that the Bible is like a giant game of telephone. That’s a fallacious argument. In the telephone game, one person whispers to another, often changing the message deliberately or by accident, and the fun is in how the message gets distorted. In contrast, Christian history shows trained scribes who were dedicated to preserving the message faithfully, doing the exact opposite of the telephone game.
The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm this. The greatest example is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is basically identical to the Isaiah manuscripts used for the King James translation, even though there’s a gap of over a thousand years—possibly as much as 1,500 years. Some critics point out thousands of differences, but those come down to things like alternate vowel markings that don’t change the meaning of the word. It’s like spelling a word wrong in a paper—you still know what it means.
Dre Binley: Or it may even have been appropriate for the time of writing. Like we write “color,” C-O-L-O-R, but it used to be spelled “colour,” C-O-L-O-U-R. And of course people in the UK still write it like that. So maybe words evolve.
Anthony Delgado: Words evolve, right? Even the meaning of words evolves. That’s where interpretation comes into play—the meaning of words. We have to understand that words evolve and change, but scribes were always trying to protect that meaning. So yes, maybe there are thousands of differences between the originals and what we have now, but they all boil down to fairly meaningless alterations. There are very few places—most of them actually in the New Testament—where you could argue something significant was added or removed. For example, the ending of Mark or the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8. But even in those cases, the ending of Mark is largely rejected, and the passage in John doesn’t change anything theologically. It’s consistent with the rest of John’s Gospel.
So seeing the Dead Sea Scrolls really trumps the argument that what we have today in the Bible is not what was originally intended. The Scrolls prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that even in ancient times, these documents were understood as sacred and exhaustive effort went into preserving them.
People have asked me, “Why would I drive an hour and wait in line just to see them?” I compare it to the difference between going to a concert versus listening to an album on Spotify. Years ago I took my mom to see the Doobie Brothers at the fairgrounds. We ended up leaving halfway through because they just stood there and played exactly like the album. Normally, though, you go to a concert to get something beyond what you’ve already heard. That’s what seeing the Dead Sea Scrolls is like.
It’s one thing to listen to someone explain them on YouTube or to take a seminary class, which I did, but going and seeing them in person is more profound. You realize, “This is real.”
In the early days of the Dead Sea Scrolls, there was a lot of uncertainty about authenticity. Probably 80% of what was called Dead Sea Scrolls in the 60s, 70s, and 80s couldn’t be verified. Many fragments had no known provenance—no cave, no chain of custody. Some were inconsistent with what we see in verified texts. So a lot of what used to tour in those decades has since been debunked.
When I visited Dallas Theological Seminary this summer, they actually had a fake Dead Sea Scroll on display in their museum, just as a reminder that biblical studies must be committed to verifying authenticity and discerning what God truly inspired. Otherwise, you end up in fringe corners of the internet where things get confusing and even misleading.
That’s why it was important for me to go. I could see with my own eyes the real, verified fragments. I took pictures, came home, and worked through them. I know enough Greek to be dangerous, so I did some analysis of what I personally saw. It’s like catching a baseball at a game—you bring it home, put it on the shelf, pick it up now and then, and show it to friends. It’s part of experiencing something you just can’t get from home.
Dre Binley: I love it because we’re part of a very robust faith tradition, and it goes way back. For me, it was the feeling of being part of something bigger than yourself and the awe of knowing that God inspired the text of Scripture because he cares about us knowing him. That alone blows my mind. So to see these ancient copies of Scripture and related texts was just fun—I geeked out. For someone listening who knows very little about the Dead Sea Scrolls, they’re picking up from us that they’re ancient documents, fragments found in the Middle East. The area they were found in is called Qumran. Some suggest the Essenes or other Jewish sects hid them during conflict with the Romans, who were destroying many texts. To preserve them, they were sealed in jars and hidden in caves.
In the 1940s they began to be discovered by locals, but at first they weren’t treated with the respect they receive now. Some suffered damage from being handled improperly in the 1950s. But discoveries have continued—2017 saw the most recent find. Excavations are ongoing, with a governmental group overseeing preservation and preventing looting. That’s the background. Why the Dead Sea Scrolls matter is exactly what Anthony said: they verify how closely our Scriptures align with the originals. They provide strong evidence that we have highly accurate texts. But there are also other reasons, like supplemental documents that support what we already know. One example is the Book of Enoch, which was highly respected, copied, and preserved in the Qumran community. My understanding is that there are four books of Enoch, though the first is the one scholars take most seriously. Is that right?
Anthony Delgado: There are actually three books of Enoch. The first—often just called Enoch—is the only one produced before Christ. The other two came later, with the third essentially being a Jewish apologetic against Christianity. So only First Enoch really matters for us. Within it, the Book of the Watchers is the most studied. It’s the most interesting section, though there are also some important “Son of Man” language and Messianic themes in other parts of First Enoch. But the Watchers is what you see most people engaging with.
Dre Binley: Do you know who Timothy Albarino is?
Anthony Delgado: I’ve heard the name.
Dre Binley: He’s a YouTuber who geeks out about Enoch and is connected to the podcast Blurry Creatures.
Anthony Delgado: Very familiar with Blurry Creatures.
Dre Binley: Timothy Albarino helped them write their commentary on First Enoch. He’s obsessed with pointing out that the “Son of Man” language and Messianic prophecy Jesus used for himself is more explicit in Enoch than anywhere in the Bible. He argues that Daniel only says, “one like a son of man,” which isn’t as strong as the explicit language in Enoch.
Anthony Delgado: I’ve heard that argument before. I’ve done a lot of work in Enoch myself—in fact, that’s my book on the Book of the Watchers right there. I tend to disagree with Albarino’s take. I believe the Apostle Paul, in Philippians 2, when he presents the Christ hymn describing Jesus exalted to the right hand of the Father, is echoing Daniel 7. The author of Hebrews uses similar language. This shows that Jesus is indeed the Son of Man of Daniel 7—the cloud-rider who ascends to the throne of God and receives dominion.
What we get in Enoch is still interesting, but I think some overstate it. There’s even an argument that Enoch in the text is referring to himself as the Son of Man. But to believe that, you have to read Second Enoch back into First Enoch, even though they were written hundreds of years apart by different authors. What Enoch really gives us is not a new revelation, but confirmation that the “Son of Man” Messianic tradition was alive and active throughout the Second Temple period. That’s why, when Jesus called himself the Son of Man, the Pharisees accused him of blasphemy—because in their minds, he was claiming to be the divine figure of Daniel 7, the one exalted to the right hand of the Father and given all authority.
Dre Binley: That he carries the name.
Anthony Delgado: Exactly—the name Yahweh.
Dre Binley: Philippians 2 says that to him uniquely was given the name that supersedes every other name. This is God. He’s saying, without saying, “I’m God.” I don’t even have time for all the internet conversations so common among the younger generation today claiming Jesus never said he was God. I can’t even reply because I don’t have the patience—it’s everywhere.
Anthony Delgado: Let’s go get coffee and talk, not argue back and forth on Instagram.
Dre Binley: And they’re all quoting the same three heretical voices who don’t know what they’re saying. So I just hope someone with more patience replies—and thankfully, they usually do. Okay, but let’s address something. If someone listening is a little concerned or confused, they might ask, “Why are we talking about an extra-biblical book? Enoch isn’t in the Bible. I came here to hear about the Bible.” Well, Scripture itself quotes and refers to Enoch. The biblical writers were familiar with it and took it seriously enough to reference it. So it’s a related text. We don’t consider it equal to Scripture, but it gives us historical context for how people thought. Would you say that’s fair?
Anthony Delgado: Yes, I would. I don’t consider the Book of Enoch Scripture, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t in some sense inspired. Coming from a Reformed tradition, I was taught to emphasize that preaching itself is a form of the Word of God—not equal to Scripture, of course, but in the sense that when the sermon is prayerfully prepared, saturated in the text, and delivered in reliance on the Spirit, God speaks through it. I think Enoch is inspired in a similar way. The authors were trying to help people understand the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings in their context.
We shouldn’t place Enoch alongside Scripture, but the ancient world seemed to recognize a hierarchy of authority and inspiration, not a simple on/off distinction. That’s how I think of Enoch. It’s not canonical, but it was influential. For example, my friend Tim Steadman wrote a book called Answers to Giant Questions. His thesis is that the New Testament is full of allusions to First Enoch, and even to broader “Enochic literature” like Jubilees or the Book of Giants, as well as biblical passages on giants in Genesis and Deuteronomy.
Understanding Enoch’s influence on the New Testament—at least on the human authors—becomes important when interpreting passages like Jude 6, which speaks of angels being chained in Tartarus. The Bible itself doesn’t give enough detail to explain that fully, but Jude is directly quoting First Enoch. To understand why Jude says this, you need to understand that narrative.
Dre Binley: Yes, exactly. Okay, that brings me to my next question. On my podcast we’ve been looking at Revelation. It’s such a massive book, and to understand it you need to know so much of the rest of Scripture. The author—possibly John—was clearly steeped in Hebrew Scripture, drawing on it constantly. Do you think John would also have been familiar with Enoch? Do you see Enoch reflected in Revelation? Do the Dead Sea Scrolls have anything to do with Revelation?
Anthony Delgado: There’s nothing in the ancient world quite like Revelation, except First Enoch—especially the Book of the Watchers. Some even call it the Apocalypse of Enoch. While the narratives of Revelation and First Enoch are different, the overarching themes often converge. Enoch presents a full cosmology: the structure of the earth, the fate of the dead, Sheol or Hades, and even something resembling the harrowing of Hades. Enoch describes righteous Abel petitioning God for justice, visions of pits of darkness and light, and even a scene like the lake of fire where fallen angels are consigned for eternity.
There are also parallels with Revelation’s vision of the new creation. In Revelation 21–22 we see the tree of life on both sides of the river flowing from God’s throne. In Enoch, we see both the tree of life and a return of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The imagery isn’t identical, but it runs in parallel.
I believe the Apostle John wrote Revelation—historically, it fits best. If not, then someone else wrote it in his name. But if it was John, he may have been intentionally offering a New Covenant correction to expectations shaped by Enoch. Revelation affirms the cosmic scope of God’s plan but redirects it to Christ.
Dre Binley: New covenant, meaning now we more fully understand that God’s redemptive plan includes all nations, and heaven will be structured to reflect that. Is that what you mean?
Anthony Delgado: Yes. Once you’ve read John, it’s undeniable that he had read Paul. Even when you read the Gospel of John, you see those connections. But nothing Jesus taught existed in the author of First Enoch’s day. In the New Covenant era, we have a fuller understanding of the redemptive storyline of Scripture. So when John reflects on the visions he’s seeing, he records them in light of everything he knew—from walking with Jesus, hearing his teaching, and also from Acts and the New Testament epistles. That’s how Revelation is framed, through that fuller New Covenant lens.
If I may, I’d like to read from First Enoch 9.
Dre Binley: Sure.
Anthony Delgado: This is from my book The Watchers and the Holy Ones. It’s a theological paraphrase of First Enoch 9. As you listen, think about Revelation and see if this sounds familiar:
Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw how much blood was spilled on the earth. They saw lawlessness spreading across the earth. So they said to each other, “The world made without inhabitants now cries out to the gates of heaven, and humankind makes their case to us, the holy ones of heaven. Bring our cause before the Most High.”
The angels said to the Lord of Ages, “You are the Lord of Lords, God of Gods, King of Kings, and the God of all ages. The throne of your glory stands throughout all generations from ancient of days. Your name is holy, glorious, and blessed through all the ages. You made all things and have authority over all things.”
They said, “You have seen what Azazel has done, teaching unrighteousness on the earth, revealing eternal secrets preserved in heaven. You have seen what Semyaza has done, to whom you gave authority over his associates. The Watchers went to the daughters of men, defiled themselves, and taught the women charms and sins. The women bore giants—demigods. Now the earth is filled with blood and unrighteousness. The souls of the dead cry out at the gates of heaven, and their lament ascends without ceasing. You know all things before they happen. You see all things. Yet you have not told us what we are to do in response.”
And here’s a brief commentary I wrote:
Four of God’s angels—Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel—petition the Lord to judge the Watchers because lawlessness was consuming the earth. God then sends Uriel to Noah with instructions regarding the flood in Genesis. Notice, the cries of the people go first to the angels, who then bring them before God’s face. This is exactly what Revelation 8:3–4 describes when an angel brings incense with the prayers of the saints before God. Jesus also says in Matthew 18:10 that our angels are always before the Father’s face. These throne room scenes in Revelation are consistent with Second Temple literature like First Enoch, which already described them. You see parallels like this between Revelation and Enoch on almost every page.
Dre Binley: I love that. I’m going to rewind this part of the podcast and listen multiple times because I need to absorb it. It feels like God keeps connecting me with people who know the context that I’m weak in. I’ve always been bad at history, but he keeps bringing people into my life who are willing to teach me, and that’s a gift. For my audience too, it encourages us to pursue deeper study and connect the dots.
And when you talk about the throne room and the history of the spiritual realm, I sense worship rising in me. I feel awe because I can tell you’re not just teaching—you’re a worshiper who honors God as the preeminent Elohim. You understand his supreme authority, and not every Bible teacher communicates that.
Anthony Delgado: Genuine awe, yes. I always tell people the Bible is my Harry Potter—I’m really a one-trick pony. I don’t watch many movies or read fiction. I’m kind of boring in that way, but it’s because I’m a total Bible fanboy. When you start to understand Scripture and put it together, I’m ready to make card decks and posters for the Bible—that’s just where I’m at. That’s why I’m passionate. People fan out over secular stories, but when the story is true—when it’s the biblical storyline of redemption—it should move us to worship. That’s one reason our church is very sacramental. We see ourselves entering into the eternal throne room, worshiping alongside the saints of all history. Our liturgy is an act of worship shaped by that reality.
Dre Binley: And I think the more you invite the Holy Spirit to teach you, the more he’ll highlight these things in the Word, and you’ll fall in love with it more and more. That’s the journey I’m on. It also makes me think of John, who identified himself as the disciple loved by Jesus. That was his whole identity—loved by Christ. He had a complete understanding of Scripture not just because he studied it deeply, but because he walked with the living Word and was transformed by God’s love and power. They even tried to kill him, but they couldn’t. Do you believe that’s why he was exiled to Patmos?
Anthony Delgado: I think so. With history, there’s always some mythologizing, but we also believe in the supernatural. I do buy the story that they tried repeatedly to kill John. In the Roman world, if someone couldn’t be killed, they were suspected of sorcery. Sorcery was considered a problem because it relied on powers outside Rome, and Caesar wanted to be the only source of power. Sorcerers were exiled to Patmos, which is technically a peninsula, not an island. They were left to survive there together. John himself tells us that’s where he was, and the context makes sense. I can’t prove it absolutely, but I lean strongly that way.
Dre Binley: And maybe one of the reasons it wasn’t his time yet was because he had to write Revelation.
Anthony Delgado: Right. I think that’s clear.
Dre Binley: It’s interesting to think that God preserved him for that work. And for each of us, even though we’re not writing Scripture, God has gifted and commissioned us for his purposes. He sustains us to accomplish what he calls us to do, keeping us alive every heartbeat.
Anthony Delgado: Absolutely.
Dre Binley: Is there any other foreshadowing towards Revelation you want to point out from these other books?
Anthony Delgado: There are so many, I wouldn’t even know where to start. For example, in Revelation 18 and 19 you see Death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation says the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. That comes directly from Enoch. Enoch always frames evil first in terms of spiritual rebellion, which undergirds human rebellion. As evangelicals we often emphasize human sin alone. I remember Dr. John MacArthur teaching that you don’t even need the devil—you’re capable of heinous sin on your own. While there’s some truth in that, I think it’s unhelpful because it ignores the bigger biblical storyline. Scripture teaches that evil is undergirded by spiritual forces. Nothing we do is spiritually neutral. Everything good is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and everything evil is inspired by a contrary spirit.
That’s why Revelation frames judgment the way it does. When people ask, “Why would a good God condemn people to hell?” the answer is about loyalty. It’s about which kingdom you’ve aligned yourself with. Those who continually give themselves to sin show loyalty to a contrary spirit. Those who submit to Christ and his authority are subject to his Spirit. That’s why the devil and his angels are cast into the lake of fire—and all who are loyal to them.
Dre Binley: Yeah. It’s a sobering thought to realize what’s happening in the unseen realm when we sin.
Anthony Delgado: Right. And when we bring the unseen realm into view, it simplifies the narrative. You realize people are simply going where they’ve chosen to go—with the spirits of the age.
Dre Binley: Yeah, which is difficult. I think God is just, and of course we struggle with that because he’s created us to love people. But we love only a tiny fraction of the way he loves those same people. Yet there is free will. In my last episode on Revelation, I looked at the verse: “and yet they still did not repent.” You see clarification of who the real God is—like the plagues of Egypt where God demonstrated his power over all false gods—yet people still refuse to repent. Even in Revelation, there’s an angel flying overhead preaching the gospel, inviting people into the kingdom, and still many refuse. It’s heartbreaking for us, and even more for the God who lovingly fashioned them. It makes me pray: “Lord, help us spread the Word as effectively as we can, knowing that ultimately it’s still everyone’s free choice.”
Anthony Delgado: Yes.
Dre Binley: It’s interesting how Revelation brings up the same archangels and even some of the same Watchers. Am I saying that right?
Anthony Delgado: In the New Testament we clearly see Michael and Gabriel, but in Second Temple literature we also encounter Raphael and Uriel—Raphael appears in the book of Tobit. Whenever we read divine council scenes in the New Testament—or even in the Old Testament—we should probably assume non-fallen angels are included, whether or not their names are given. So in Revelation, when angels act, I don’t think the point is to identify each one by name. Angels don’t care about their names—they serve God in submission to him. In the same way, demons don’t care about their names—they serve in rebellion against him. Focusing on which angel is which misses the point. What matters is that God works through intermediaries—his angels and his people.
Dre Binley: Seems like that’s his leadership style. He likes to delegate.
Anthony Delgado: Exactly. That’s why he created in the first place. As Dr. Heiser would say, God wants a family.
Dre Binley: That’s the cool part.
Anthony Delgado: Yes.
